Speaking of christmas

I know we weren't but I really want to know this one. How did the myth of Santa get started? I mean, who would come up with a fat man who wears a red furry suit and has the ability to morph into a being slim and flexible enough to slide down chimneys along with huge gifts such as bikes or Plasma TVs? Anyone?
 

Myrddin

Well-Known Member
Maybe he stems from the welsh night-crawler, child snatching, bodach. Maybe not. But the bodach crawled down chimneys looking for rotten children to snatch away well they slept. And they have the ability to shape-shift into the form of an old man.

Or Santa could just be an invention of a big company like Hallmark.
 

greekgoddess31

Active Member
There are myths of a Santa Claus like figure that go back all the way to the Byzantine Empire. I think the modern version is an amalgamation of all of them.
 

Nadai

Active Member
I remember hearing a story about St. Nicholas. He was a wood carver and would give gifts to poor children and food to the hungry. I think it started off that he was only delivering goods to a single family, but then saw so many other families in need that he couldn't help but to help them as well. People declared him a saint because of his kindness; he would give gifts to the children every year and even after he was gone the tradition continued.
I have no clue where I heard that, maybe it was a movie... but I'd like to think that, at least once upon a time, there was someone so kind and selfless that they spent time making toys for children and gathering food for people who had none.
Maybe that's how the tradition of Santa started. People with nothing else to look forward to would encourage themselves with stories of a man who would reward them for good behavior...like most religions or cults, 'do what you're supposed to and you will be rewarded'.
 

RLynn

Active Member
I had heard that St. Nicholas was a bishop in Asia Minor. I looked him up in Wikipedia, and indeed he was a bishop in what was then Greece in the third century. Apparently he was the sort of person whom one can't help but admire for his compassion and generosity. He refused to take credit for his kindness, insisting that it came from God, not Nicholas.
 
There were some interesting parallels between Santa Claus and Odin that I have read on Wikipedia; they both appear wearing a cloak, drooping hat, and a great beard; Santa has his reindeer and Odin has Sleipnir. I suppose in some respects, Santa could be a sort of "anti-psychopomp," as he allegedly flies through the sky accompanied by his reindeer in a joyful rendition of the ominous Wild Hunt. However, I'm not sure how recently the reindeer-driven sleigh was added to the lore of Santa; either way, from a folkloric standpoint, it is a plausible addition.

Now, a Christmas figure that has intrigued me for a while is Krampus, the satyr-like imp that accompanies Santa and administers cudgelling to naughty children....
 
The story that I remember hearing the most as a child was similar to Nadai's explanation. I would be interesting in knowing where Santa Claus really did originate from but there are so many stories I bet it is hard to say where it came from.
 

Athena

New Member
Wasn't Saint Nicholas the patron saint of children? I'm fairly sure that he was the inspiration for Santa Claus. My favorite incarnation was Edmund Gwenn in Miracle on 34th Street. That's always been one of my favorite movies.
 
There were some interesting parallels between Santa Claus and Odin that I have read on Wikipedia; they both appear wearing a cloak, drooping hat, and a great beard; Santa has his reindeer and Odin has Sleipnir.
yeah, true, and also during the Wild Hunt, children would leave socks or bags hanging by their doors or in front of their door. kinda expecting to receive some gifts, maybe?
 
yeah, true, and also during the Wild Hunt, children would leave socks or bags hanging by their doors or in front of their door. kinda expecting to receive some gifts, maybe?
Ah, now this is interesting. I had forgotten that particular detail, but I believe you're right. Great connection there!

I remember hearing a story about St. Nicholas. He was a wood carver and would give gifts to poor children and food to the hungry. I think it started off that he was only delivering goods to a single family, but then saw so many other families in need that he couldn't help but to help them as well. People declared him a saint because of his kindness; he would give gifts to the children every year and even after he was gone the tradition continued.
The story I heard was that there was a poor man with two daughters who wanted to have his daughter marry into wealthy families—I think one was a merchant and the other a doctor—but the man didn't have money for the dowries. A man in the village, Nicholas, heard about it, and being a good Christian, followed the admonition to not let the left hand know what the right is doing when giving to the poor. So what did he do? He climbed onto the poor family's roof and dropped a sock containing money down their chimney. Sometime shortly thereafter, the sock and money were discovered, and the daughters were settled in financially-secure homes.

But there are a lot of myths surrounding the identity and person of Nicholas.

Wasn't Saint Nicholas the patron saint of children? I'm fairly sure that he was the inspiration for Santa Claus.
Originally, yes, I believe so. However, the modern vision of Santa Claus/Father Christmas/and his gaggle of variants is so developed that we can't honestly say anymore that Santa is a corruption of Saint Nicholas, or that he is only a variation of Odin. I think it's safe to say that Santa has earned the right to be classified as his own mythological figure.
 

RLynn

Active Member
Santa Claus seems to be a conflation of various characters. However, the Nordic influence is obviously dominant. He is even referred to as an elf in Clement Moore's poem. Yes, he has evidently evolved as a unique character.
By the way, the Magi of the Christmas story also contributed to the Santa concept, and in some cultures it is the Magi ( the three kings or wise men) who bring presents to children, but this occurs on January 6 (Epiphany, Old Christmas), not December 25.
 

Toni

Active Member
All this is very interesting and I'm sure in the beginning, "Santa" did good deeds and made people happy. However, the whole concept has gotten out of hand, don't you think? People go into debt just to buy Christmas gifts for their children and other people. Christmas is so stressful that is has become one of the highest suicide periods of the year. I could go on and on but as I said, it's gotten out of hand. I wish we could stop it.
 

RLynn

Active Member
All this is very interesting and I'm sure in the beginning, "Santa" did good deeds and made people happy. However, the whole concept has gotten out of hand, don't you think? People go into debt just to buy Christmas gifts for their children and other people. Christmas is so stressful that is has become one of the highest suicide periods of the year. I could go on and on but as I said, it's gotten out of hand. I wish we could stop it.
As long as retailers make money, and people are vulnerable to advertising, it won't stop. It is totally insane. I neither give Christmas gifts nor send Christmas cards, and haven't done so for many years. I'm not particularly angry about the holiday idiocy, just sad. A family member committed suicide on December 19, 1989, while I was out shopping for their gift. It was devastating.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWoKgG8u1k0
 

magickz

Active Member
Very nice read too! We ended up doing some stories with the kids over the weekend but most times in our house when they get older they always want to know more. I think some of the myths head around the schools these days too, more so than when I was there thats for sure.
 

LegendofJoe

Active Member
As long as retailers make money, and people are vulnerable to advertising, it won't stop. It is totally insane. I neither give Christmas gifts nor send Christmas cards, and haven't done so for many years. I'm not particularly angry about the holiday idiocy, just sad. A family member committed suicide on December 19, 1989, while I was out shopping for their gift. It was devastating.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWoKgG8u1k0
Sorry to hear about that!!!
I actually have trouble wrapping my head around buying gifts because you have to rather than wanting to.
Liked the youtube link; how did you know it was my favorite X-mas song??
 
There is a goddess figure that was also associated with Chistmas.
She is called Bertha, but is also sometimes called Holda, Holle, Herodia and Diana.
She rides through the sky at night with a train of children that died before baptism.
Pretty interesting! According to Wikipedia, Bertha (or Perchta) is alleged to be associated with Krampus (or vise-versa). I'll have to read more about her when I get a chance.
 

Nadai

Active Member
The story I heard was that there was a poor man with two daughters who wanted to have his daughter marry into wealthy families—I think one was a merchant and the other a doctor—but the man didn't have money for the dowries. A man in the village, Nicholas, heard about it, and being a good Christian, followed the admonition to not let the left hand know what the right is doing when giving to the poor. So what did he do? He climbed onto the poor family's roof and dropped a sock containing money down their chimney. Sometime shortly thereafter, the sock and money were discovered, and the daughters were settled in financially-secure homes.
I guess it's a good thing the fire wasn't burning;)
 

Nadai

Active Member
There is a goddess figure that was also associated with Chistmas.
She is called Bertha, but is also sometimes called Holda, Holle, Herodia and Diana.
She rides through the sky at night with a train of children that died before baptism.
Pretty spooky. Here is an image:
That sounds a bit like the demon Lilith in my opinion, except the children are ones that she herself killed. Before modern science people believed that she was the cause for SIDS, though to my knowledge, she didn't bring gifts.
Apparently, in the beginning there was Adam and Lilith, but unlike Eve, Lilith wasn't made from Adam's rib, she was her own person. She didn't stick to the whole "wives submit to your husbands" and her and Adam would disagree about who went on top during sex so she was sent away. When she left the devil came to her and gave her the power she wanted to oppose man and so she became a demon. Her revenge came when Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden and began to populate the world. Lilith would go in and steal the souls from infants (the sons of Adam-however far descended they were) and they would become her servants. To circumvent this, women would sing songs to their babies before placing them in their cradles and these songs were supposed to keep Lilith away. They were called Lilith-bes (Lillith'be) or lullibies.
 
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