Impossible questions database

Discussion in 'Greek Mythology' started by Alejandro, Mar 29, 2012.

  1. Alejandro

    Alejandro Active Member

    A catalogue of questions I've been trying to get answered for awhile now. Anyone interested in changing the "Impossible" part of the equation? Wild guesses are also welcome... as a nerdy academic exercise, or better yet: plainly just for fun! (Or is there a difference between the two? ;))

    1. Ornis. Said to be the mother, by King Stymphalos of Arkadia, of the voracious monster birds which plagued the Arkadian Lake Stymphalos, and which Herakles (Hercules) was ordered to get rid of as one of his twelve athloi. Who or what was Ornis? A hint: her name means "Bird," and I think she's an ornithanthropomorphic monster nymph like the Seirenes (Sirens) or the Harpies, but what do I know?

    2. Erytheia. Said to be the daughter of Geryones and mother, by Hermes, of the colonist hero Norax. Who was her mother, and is she supposed to have been a [perhaps red many-bodied] giant or ogre like her father?

    3. Why are Akakallis and Satyraia (or Satyrion), daughters of Minos and Pasiphai, called nymphs while their sisters Ariadne, Phaidra and Xenodike appear to be ordinary women?

    4. Ourea (Urea). Daughter of Poseidon and mother by Apollon (Apollo) of Ileus. Who was her mother, and is Ourea supposed to be a mountain-goddess (like her niece Aitna [Ætna]), since her name means "Mountain"?

    5. Europe. Daughter of Tityos and mother by Poseidon of the Argonaut Euphemos. Is she supposed to be a giant (like her father) or a nymph or both?

    6. Asterope. Mother by Helios of the witch Kirke (Circe). Might she be the same as the Pleiad Sterope, daughter of Atlas and Pleïone?

    7. Pampholyge (or is it Pamphyloge?). Mother by Okeanos of Asia and Libya (Anatolia and Africa). Who is she?! I'm guessing she's a daughter of Okeanos with whom he himself consorted, like he did with another daughter Argeia, the mother of their daughter Melia (who married the Inakhos River). But what d'you think?

    8. Memnon. Father of Theia, who becomes by Okeanos the mother of the Kerkopes (Cercopes.) Who is he?! Is he supposed to be the son of Tithonos and Eos, or are we talking about a different Memnon here?

    9. Is Antianeira the mother by Hermes of the Argonauts Ekhion and Eurytos the same as Antianeira the mother by Apollon of Idmon?

    10. Pyronia (or Phronia?). Mother by Minos of Iasion. Who is she?! An obscure fire-goddess, maybe?

    11. Euryodia. Mother by Zeus of Arkeisios. Who is she?! A daughter of Minyas, perhaps?

    12. Parthenope. The wife of Okeanos and mother of Europa, Thrace and Amphitrite. Is she supposed to be the same as Parthenope the Seiren (Siren)?

    13. Zabios. King of the Hyperboreans, father of Themisto, grandfather of Galeus and ancestor of the Galeotai. What else about him or other Hyperborean kings?

    14. Himantis. Mother by Apollon of Mopsos. Who is she?!

    15. Manto. Mother by Apollon of Mopsos (a different one from the one above in #14?). Is she perhaps the same as Manto the daughter of Teiresias?

    16. Babylonia. A nymph by whom Apollon became the father of Arabios. What else about her, apart from the obvious like the ancient empire based in what is now Iraq being named after her?

    17. Pitys. A nymph who the North Wind Boreas smashed to death against a rock because she rejected his sexual advances. Is she supposed to be the same Pitys loved by Pan and who was changed into a pine-tree?

    18. Torrhebia. A nymph who became by Zeus the mother of Karios and Arkhesilaos. Who is she?! And is Karios supposed to be the same as Kar, the son of Zeus and Krete, and eponym of Karia? Who is Arkhesilaos?

    19. Lysithea. A daughter of Okeanos. Is she perhaps the same as Lysithœ, the mother by Zeus of an ancient Herakles?

    20. Deusos. Son of the Cyclops Arges and his wife, who was a nymph. What else about him?

    21. Adeus. Son of Poseidon. What else about him?

    22. Autoukhos. Son of Apollo and Cyrene, and brother of Aristaeus and Idmon. Who's he!?

    23. Hyppolite. Daughter of Ares and Aphrodite. Is she supposed to be the Amazon Hippolyta, daughter of Ares and Otrere?

    24. If King Manes of Lydia was a son of Zeus by Gaia, would that make him a giant or a monster or something (like his brothers the Centaurs of Cyprus or his hermaphroditic sibling Agdistis [later Kybele] or his [half-]brother Tityos)?

    25. Autokhthe. One of the only two daughters of Perseus and Andromeda. A certain feminist website dedicated to ancient Amazons claims that she was an Amazon. Anyone reasonably for/against that notion?

    26. Harpalyke. A virgin who killed herself over her [unrequited?] love for Iphikles (= the son of Amphitryon and Alkmene?). What else about her/them?

    27. Ammon. King of Libya, son of Zeus and Akakallis and husband of Geta or Amaltheia. Serious chronological glitch if he and his wife helped nurse the infant Zeus (his own father!), but I think they're otherwise said to have nursed his infant half-brother Dionysos. What else about him and Geta?

    28. Sterope. A daughter of Helios who married Eurypylus son of Poseidon and the Pleiad Celaeno. This Eurypylus migrated to Libya (from whichever divine place he originated) before the nymph Cyrene, and there fought "the" lion that attacked his flocks (though the story usually runs that Cyrene wrestled a lion [or lions] before being transplanted from her homeland to Libya by Apollo). In Libya Eurypylus was supposedly connected with the Argonauts and dedicated a sanctuary to Soteria at Patrae (in Achaea?). By Sterope he was the father of Lycaon and Leucippus (who are these guys?). This Eurypylus is otherwise known as the son of Hyperochus and father of Ormenus, or the son of the Thessalian Dexamenus son of Oeceus. What more of this Sterope and Eurypylus?

    29. The Phaeacian bard Demodokos was the son of Korkyra. Is this Korkyra the same as the daughter of Asopos?

    30. Asteria. Daughter of Atlas. Perhaps the same as the Pleiad Asterope (Sterope)?

    31. Hippodameia. Daughter of Aniketos, and one of Zeus' many lovers. Is this Aniketos the son of Herakles and Hebe, and brother of Alexiares?

    32. Erinome. Daughter of Celes (Keles?) who was apparently compelled by Venus (Aphrodite) to fall in love with Jupiter (Zeus). I'm not sure if this is supposed to be a Roman or Greek myth, nor have I any idea who Erinome or Celes were. A little help here(?)

    33. Theiodamas (Theodamas or Thiodamas). One of the Gigantes who fought against the gods in Gigantomakhia (the Gigantes' War). What more about him?

    34. Gaius Hyginus gives us this list of Gigantes. Perhaps they fought against the gods in Gigantomakhia. But what else about them?
    Alemone
    Bebsicus
    Celadon
    Colophonus (Colophemus?)
    Corydon or Epphracorydon?
    Elentes and Mophius or Lentesmophius
    Emphytus
    Hellenius = Jenius (Ienius) ?
    Menephriarus
    Obrimus
    Phœmis
    Phrulus
    Piculus
    Pronomus
    Rhœcus or Rhœtus
    Rhuncus
    Theomises


    35. What more of the fight between Tyndareos and the Gigantos Eurytos? Like who won and stuff like that?

    36. Tyrsios. One of the Gigantes who fought against the gods in Gigantomakhia. What else about him?

    37. Ekphanto. A daughter of Zeus, of whom the only info seems to be that a certain Trophon or Grophon made a statue of her. A certain Welcker is cited in an 1829 document called The Classical Journal as saying that Ekphanto is "an epithet of Diana [Artemis]". Anyone got anything else?
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2013
  2. Caburus

    Caburus Active Member

    You been saving these up?
    1. Stymphalos + Ornis = Stymphalian birds. Originally envisioned as brazen birds, they were later thought to have been daughters of Stymphalos, and were killed for refusing Herakles hospitality. I'm guessing the parents were invented to explain their name once they had become human. Ornis is therefore an invention to explain the 'bird' title.
    The brazen birds also protected a temple to Ares in the Black sea. Maybe the birds got confused with the Amazons - another foe of Herakles, who lived near the Black Sea and were under the patronage of Ares.
    2. Were there female giants in Greek myth? Geryones might means 'singing', so one of the Muses would be an apt lover. Maybe Polyhymnia ('many hymns') would match Geryon's many bodies, and as patron of lyric poetry, she makes an appropriate mother-in-law to Hermes, inventor of the lyre.
    3. Perhaps their sister Ariadne granted them nymph-hood to give her some her sane company amongst the Maenads of Dionysus. Or maybe all of Pasiphae's daughters, as a daughter of the immortal Helios herself, were supposed to have been nymphs, but her encounter with the bull of Poseidon somehow polluted that inheritance.
    4. As the ourea were the daughters of Gaia, perhaps Ourea was a daughter of Poseidon and Gaia (as was Charybdis).
    5. If she were the result of Tityos' attack on Leto, she was more likely an immortal nymph.
    6. I thought her mother was Perseis? But Asterope probably was Sterope.
    7. Hesiod writes that Asia was the daughter of Oceanus and Tethys. Pamphyloge - whats the source for her?
    8. Memnon, son of Eos, was King of Ethiopia. He succeeded his brother, Emathion, who had been slain by Herakles during his servitude to Eurytus. This Memnon died in the Trojan War.
    Herakles later captured the Cercopes, grand-sons of Memnon, while in servitude to Omphale. Herakles is meant to have died about 40 years befor the seige of Troy.
    So the Memnon who was old enough to be the grandfather of the Cecropes, would have to be about 100 to have been alive to lead men into the Trojan war. But then Nestor was reputably older still, so no reason why not. So yes they probably were the same Memnon.
    9. All the children were Argonauts, but I don't know. There were more than one Antianeiras.
    10. Pausanius gives Pyronia as a title of Artemis. But I don't think she had much patience with men. Pasiphae, as a daughter of the sun, could be a sun-goddess.
    Alejandro likes this.
  3. Alejandro

    Alejandro Active Member

    Yeah, something like that, although I tried to get them answered on the erstwhile Facebook Greek Mythology Group & some on Yahoo!Answers with little success on either one. Your responses are kinda awesome!

    1. Makes sense.

    2. There's a scholion in something called the Myriobiblon ("Library") of Photios, which says that one of the Gigantes who attacked the town of the gods on Mt Olympos during the War of the Gigantes was female. It doesn't give her a name, though. I like the suggestion of Polyhymnia for Erytheia's mother. (Incidentally this Muse is the only one of the nine who no ancient writer ascribes any children. Fancy that.)

    3. Sounds convincingly likely.

    4. Wish I'd thoughta that myself!

    5. I'd never thought of the idea that Tityos succeeded in his rape attempt on Leto. That'd make the story of his altercation with Apollon and Artemis even more interesting, as well as give some more colour to the tale of his subsequent punishment in Tartaros.

    6. There is a version of Kirke’s parentage (in the Orphic Argonautika) in which her mother is called Asterope, although, yes, Perseïs is the most common name used for the mother of this immortal witch. Maybe she’s supposed to have some connection with Airope, who in yet another alternative is the mother of Kirke by Hyperion (rather than by Helios, although in this case perhaps Hyperion is the alias which Helios sometimes borrows from his father).

    7. William Smith's 1888 Dictonary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology seems to give John Tzetzes' 12th-century commentary on Lykophronos as the source for Pamphyloge. And in reading Robert Fowler's Early Greek Mythography Vol. 2, I've found that apparently a fragment from a writer named Andron actually calls her Pompholyge, and I guess this fragment is the source drawn upon by Tzetzes, if in fact the Dictionary intends Tzetzes as its origin for this genealogy.

    8. I suppose so, since we don't have any other Memnon in Greek myth. Also I just imagine the human lifespan was notably longer back then, considering also that these characters were very close in descent from the "deathless" gods and the immortal Titans. The Kerkopes have always, however, represented quite a strange phenomenon to me, since they were dwarves or gnomes but their father was the oldest and biggest of all the Titans. If Eos was their maternal grandmother, then that makes yet another Titan from whom they were very closely descended, making them of Titanic descent on both sides of their family, and causing their stature to be even more difficult to explain. (Ah, well, maybe their mother herself was dwarfish.)

    9. So you're thinking two different personages rather than the same one?

    10. Nice!

    What else you got? :)
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2014
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  4. Caburus

    Caburus Active Member

    You've set quite a task - to answer all the unanswered questions in Greek myth and build a family tree with all parties identifiable.
  5. Alejandro

    Alejandro Active Member

    I've actually selected only the most obscure or intriguing references I could find. There's plenty more unanswered questions and random branches of the family tree which aren't considered here. (In fact it'd be pretty cool if anyone else could add to these with their own findings of obscure &/or intriguing questions.)

    But, hey, hence the title of the post/thread... with which you haven't done badly at all so far! :D

  6. Caburus

    Caburus Active Member

    Does that means the next 40 questions will be easier?
    11. Probable. Euryodia was the grandmother of Laertes, who was said to have been an Argonaut. If she were the daughter of Minyas, she would have been the sister of Clymene, the grandmother of Jason, who led the Argonauts. So Laertes was second cousin to Jason. Apollonius of Rhodes, in his Argonautica, implies that many of the Argonauts were descended from the daughters of Minyas, so Laertes would fit as one of those too.
    12. Parthenope the siren would have been the granddaughter of Zeus (via a muse). It feels chronologically unlikely for her to be the same Parthenope who was the mother of Amphitrite the wife of Poseidon. But that doesn’t help with who she is. Maybe a Nereid?
    13. See http://www.theoi.com/Phylos/Hyperborea.html. The Kings of Hyperborean = possibly descendants of Apollo? Depends on where you place Hyperborea within known geography, - north of Thrace, or north of the Black Sea, and then what kings we know of those countries. Traditionally associated with the source of amber, the Baltic area is a favourite site. Perhaps the ancient kings of Sweden were the Hyperborean royalty?
    14. Himantis. Does her name mean something like ‘great prophet’? An apt title for a seer’s mother, as Apollo is a good choice for his father. Perhaps an invented name?
    15. She is normally accepted as such, but could Manto be the same as Himantis? Has a pun been made on her name? The two Mopsoses would therefore be the same seer?
    16. As Arabius gave his name to Arabia, Babylonia could have given hers to Babylon. As Belus is also said to have founded Babylon, perhaps she was his daughter or wife? Belus was father of Theias and Ninus who married Semiramis and built Ninevah. This Belus is either the son of Libya and Poseidon, who came out of Africa, or the Babylonian god Bel-Marduk, or both!
    17. Yes. In Libanius’ Progymnasmata, Pitys is courted by both Boreas and Pan. She chooses Pan, and Boreas in anger blew her off a cliff. But Gaia turned her body into a pine tree, which Pan then used in his crown.
    18. Torrhebia was a nymph of the country of Lydia. Their son Karios had a temple on a mountain nearby named after him. He taught music to the Lydians. Maybe Kar was ancestor of the Karians, and Karios just their neighbour. Arkhesilaos could be Arkesilaos, and maybe ancestor to the Battiad family (who alternated the name Battus and Arkesilaos in their kings). That family originated in Thera, which may have been colonised by Karians at some ancient date.
    19. Lysithoe – ‘gives out impatience’??? Would that not be a good name for parent of the Theban Herakles who tussled with Apollo because he got impatient with the oracle? But Lysithea- ‘gives out divinity’ (??) would be a good mother for Herakles as a whole, so maybe they were the same.
    20. The Cyclopes Arges was also called Argilipus, Pyracmon and Acmonides – all names signifying the fire of the lightening. Deusos is Latin for god. The god called “the son of fire” is Dionysus, born from the ashes of Semele and the lightening of Zeus. Who is the mother of Deusos?
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  7. Alejandro

    Alejandro Active Member

    Well, I don't know that I have any more questions to add, & you honestly look like you're well on your way to demolishing the Impossible part of the notion entirely, so kudos!

    11. Indeed. That was my suspicion as well.

    12. There's a version of the Seirenes' parentage in which they are the daughters of Phorkys and Keto. If Okeanos' wife Parthenope was a Nereid, it'd be the only instance of a Nereid bearing this name (of which I'm aware anyway), but since we're talking obscurities here, why not?

    13. I like it (especially the kings of Sweden suggestion)! :)

    14 & 15. I think it's possible that the two Mopsoi are in fact one and the same. I don't know what Himantis means but if it's what you're guessing then it wouldn't be far off for there to be some sort of wordplay between that name and Manto's, the latter meaning "Seeress" or "Prophetess," and yes, Himantis and Manto could well be the same person (which I'd never considered before).

    16. "Babylonia" might also be a descriptive rather than a proper name as such, meaning "Babylonian nymph," but if it is a proper name then for sure the idea is that she was the eponym of the ancient empire. In the alternate version of the ancestry of Arabs they are said to be descended from Arabos, son of Hermaon [i.e., Hermes] and Thronia, daughter of Belos, son of Poseidon and Libya. The Belos [Belus] who fathered Theias and Ninus is supposed to be a descendant of the son of Poseidon and Libya, removed by seven generations. Could either Belos have begotten a nymph [such as we are told Babylonia was], though?

    17 & 18. Nice. Cheers!

    19. Hmmm... I hadn't thought about the meanings of their names, which are a very interesting angle.

    20. All I've got on Deusos' mother is that she was a nymph. I'm not sure if all three Cyclopes were married to nymphs and had sons. The story of Asklepios' death suggests that more than one of them did have children since "the sons of the Cyclopes" [no names given that I know of, though] were slain by the Hyperborean Arrow of Apollon. (So you think Deusos is some sort of Hellenisation of Deus?)
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2013
  8. Caburus

    Caburus Active Member

    I'll keep ploughing on, and when all finished, repost the ones you're not satisfied with (within reason), and see if anyone else can have a go.
    21. Only heard of him as being a monstrous savage, but nothing else. Maybe he is the same as Atheus, the god of atheism? J
    22. Kyrene killed a lion, and had a son, Aristaeus, the god of bees (hints of Samson here, and the “out of strength came forth sweetness” riddle). Also a son Idmon, a prophet who travelled far until he died (he saw as far as he travelled; that is, he saw until his own death), and Autoukhos, which means ‘self-possessing’. Kyrene lived in Libya, and her son, Autukhus, stayed there, so maybe he ruled the colony where his mother lived? As self-possessed he was probably a well-rounded and just ruler, or perhaps it irony, and he just did as his mother told him.
    23. Hyppolite = Hippolyta probably are the same. Otrere is also called the daughter of Ares (by Aphrodite?). So if Hippolyte was Aphrodite’s granddaughter, and so could be classed as her ‘daughter’ too.
    24. Most of Gaia’s children were monstrous in some form, so he was probably thought of as some giant. Maybe he was similar to Typhon and Erechthonius, and the others who had serpent legs.
    25. I thought Amazons were born, not adopted, at least not in this early part of their history. But if there is another case in Greek mythology of an Amazon by adoption, then I’ll accept it. Her sister, Gorgophone, was the first woman who refused to kill herself on her husband’s death, and Autokhthe means ‘self-created’, so maybe those two ideas imply a strong woman who bucks society’s oppressions, which modern feminists assume equates with being an Amazon.
    26. It was Iphiclus the son of Thestius, and he did reject her. According to Athenaeus there was a song competition held in her honour, called Harpalyce. Nothing else is said about her, including the idea that she was a virgin (virgins sang the songs about her, so maybe it’s taken as red that she was one also).
    27. The basics - according to Diodorus Siculus’ History, Book 3: Ammon, king of Libya was husband to Rhea the daughter of Uranus and sister of Cronus. But Ammon fell in love with the maiden Amaltheia, and begat a beautiful child on her called Dionysus, whom he hid, from fear of Rhea, and gave into the care of Nysa daughter of Aristaeus. As Dionysus grew up, Rhea found out and left Ammon to marry her brother Cronus. Cronus invaded Libya and expelled Ammon, who went to Crete and became king there. Dionysus fought Cronus and defeated him, becoming king of Libya, and reconciled himself with Rhea. Rhea and Cronus had a son Zeus, whom Dionysus cared much for. But Cronus and the Titans then attacked Ammon on Crete, and Dionysus, with Zeus, defeated and killed them. Geta is therefore another name for Rhea.
    This was the first Dionysus. The second Dionysus was the son of Zeus and Io and was King of Egypt (= Epaphus?). The third was son of Zeus and Semele, as per popular Greek mythology.
    Ammon was also a name given to Zeus, with ram horns. He had an oracle in Libya, and was appropriated as his father by Alexander the Great.
    28. Stumped and confused on this. Eurypylus son of Poseidon/Hyperochus/Dexamenus. Was he not the son of Euaemon & Ops too? Sterope doesn’t appear as a daughter of Helios, but as one of his fiery horses. Perhaps having sex with a horse meant no one would own Eurypylus as a son, except of course for Poseidon, the God of horses. Lycaon means ‘deceiving wolf’ and Leucippus means ‘white stallion’. Wolves, lies and sex with horses bring to mind Loki, the Norse God, but let’s not go there now.
    29. Homer calls Demodokos the divine minstrel, so he probably had a god as some parent/ grandparent. Korkyra was the mother, by Poseidon, of Phaiax, who gave his name to the Phaeacians. He wasn’t their ancestor, for they were born of the earth, and he was succeeded by two kings - Nausithoos and Alcinous - down to the time of the Trojan War. Demodokos is represented at Troy as old and blind, so maybe he was the surviving brother of Phaiax, and so a divine son of Poseidon.
    30. Asterope was a Hesperides; Sterope was a Pleides. Both were daughters of Atlas. Does Asteria appear in either one of those lists?
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  9. Alejandro

    Alejandro Active Member

    Well, let's see how it goes. I can appreciate that not everyone who's into mythology is also into investigating the obscurest corners thereof. Your indulgence: much appreciated.

    21. Monstrous savage? Really? Any sources for that? Hmmn... Can't say that I've heard of this Atheus you've cited :p

    22. Ah, I'd've never thought to link Cyrene's lion-wrestling and Aristaios' bee-keeping to Samson's honeyed lion riddle :)

    23. Plutarch says that Otrere's mother was Armenia, who I presume must be the same as the Naiad Harmonia by whom Ares was the father of the Amazons.

    24. Yeah, I think so too.

    25. Good points (in my opinion)! :)

    26 & 27. Thanx!

    28. Eurypylus son of Evaemon and Ops is supposed to be distinct from this Eurypylus because they lived in two different generations. Evaemon's son was one the suitors of Helen, fought in the Trojan War and was one of the Greek warriors concealed inside the Wooden Horse. Eurypylus son of Dexamenus apparently accompanied Herakles in his expedition against Laomedon a generation earlier. Sterope, as a daughter of Helios, the wife of Eurypylus and mother of Lycaon and Leucippus, apparently comes from the Scholiast on Pindar's Pythian Ode and Tzetzes' commentary on Lycophron. Perhaps the etymological connections need not be as sinister as Loki's shenanigans with Svaðilfari :rolleyes:...

    29. Indeed.

    30. Asterope is another form of the Pleiad Sterope's name: Hesiod and Hyginus use this form when they write of this Pleiad. Asterope as a Hesperid's name is not attested in any extant writing, just in an ancient vase painting. No, Asteria doesn't appear in any list of the Pleiades or Hesperides. Ooh! But I just found an online encyclopedia which thinks that, because the source for Asteria daughter of Atlas is the Latin writer Hyginus [notorious for making errors and confusions with his Greek mythology], he probably means Asterope when he says Asteria.
  10. Caburus

    Caburus Active Member

    Last lot. It's been interesting, but usually fruitless. Who knows what the Greeks were about with their gods and myths. Differnt areas had different traditions, and trying to form them into a unifying familytree or frame work can be at times impossible (even the Greeks found that two thousand years ago). And then there is no guarentee that later traditions (eg Hyginus) were well resourced or accurate in their transmission.
    31. Were there any children of this Hippodameia? It would have been one of Zeus’ very last amours within Greek mythology if she were the granddaughter of the deified Heracless. Aniketos and Alexiares were worshipped as defenders of Mount Olympus and of cities, in particular Thebes.
    32. This myth apparently comes from Maurus Servius Honoratus’ 4th Century commentary on Vergil’s Ecologues, but I can’t find the actual work. Erinome was a chaste young woman in Roman mythology whom Venus caused to fall in love with Jupiter. However, she loses her virginity to Adonis after Venus obscures her vision with a fog (on Juno’s orders?). This displeases the goddess Diana, who turns Erinome into a peacock. Adonis, realizing he has assaulted a love of Jupiter, flees into the woods, but is driven out by Mercury. They fight, and just as Adonis is about to defeat Mercury, Jupiter kills him with a lightning bolt.
    I’d like to know more, myself. The original cause of the dispute between Venus and Erinome I don’t know - possibly Erinome boasted of her virginity in comparison to Venus’ behaviour. Perhaps she was one of Diana’s virgin companians. It is odd that Venus would condone Adonis’ seduction, as she herself was in love with him. His death is also at odds with his normal hunting demise, although the wooded setting is the same.
    33. Theodamas means ‘conquered by Gods’ so may not be his original name, but one gained after his defeat.
    34. All I know of the Gigantes is that they were the children of Gaia, who encouraged them to fight against the gods of Olympus after the defeat of her other children, the Titans. A prophecy said that they could only be defeated by the gods with help from a mortal, which proved to be Heracles. While the gods would wound the giants, Heracles would dispatch them. Hyginus says that all the giants were killed, destroyed by Zeus’ thunderbolts or crushed under mountains where they remain as volcanoes. In your list, I suggest that Celadon is Enceladus, who Athena crushed under Sicily, and is the source of mount Aetna. Perhaps other names are corruptions also.
    If you still feel the need to have some of them escape with their lives, then maybe they fled north to Scandinavia, and became the fire-giants of Norse mythology. In Norse mythology the frost giants were descended from Ymir, but the fire-giants, led by Surt, are called sons of Muspell, from Muspellheim, meaning ‘land of desolation’ in the far south. As the giants were seen as the origins of Greek volcanoes, they would seem suitably fiery, and would be coming from the far south (Greece); a land made desolate for them by the fire of Zeus’ thunder-bolts.
    35. What fight is this? Eurytos was a giant injured by Dionysus during the battle for Olympus with his pine-cone tipped thyrsus, and was killed. Is this Tyndareus, King of Sparta? Could the story be a misunderstanding of the word ‘thyrsus’ for ‘tyndareus’??
    36. Tyrsios = Typhoeus? A scribal error? Don’t know the name otherwise.
    37. Ecphanto – the inscription bearing this name is not fully understood. Ecphanto could be the name of the statue’s dedicator, or be an epithet. Ecphantos is a Greek name;
    http://www.mythindex.com/greek-mythology/E/Ecphanto. html
    http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=wBjgAAAAMAAJ&q=artemis#v=onepage&q=welcker&f=false
    If any of my answers still leave you questions - repost 'em.
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  11. Alejandro

    Alejandro Active Member

    I concur regarding them differing traditions and how discrepant they can tend to be.

    31. Clement of Alexandria, our source for this Hippodameia, makes no mention of children (which would seem to be the sole occurrence of a "fruitless" union between Zeus and a woman in the mythology).

    32. Thanx!

    33. Oh. I thought The(i)odamas means "God-Tamer/ Tamer of [the] Gods," which strikes me as the most gangstah name I've yet come across in the mythology, auspiciously appropriate for a Gigantos, I suppose. Or could it (syntactically) bear either meaning?

    34. I like the way U think! :)

    35. I think you might be right. The Spartan is the only Tyndareos of whom I'm aware in the mythology.

    36. Wouldn't Tyrsios mean something like "Of the Tower"...?

    37. Yeah, those are the sources from which I got the name...

    I'll leave it as is for now, in case anyone else is as interested to contribute her/his assistance on whichever point. Your contribution has been stellar! Many thanx. & since you've been on such a roll, maybe you can add insight to some additional questions>>

    38. Philottos and Spinter. Sons of Hephaistos. What more about them?

    39. Daidalion, Philonis, Telaüge and Leukonœ. Son and daughters of the Astron (Star[-God]) Eosphoros. Who was their mother/ Who were their mothers? King Keÿx of Trakhis was the son of Eosphoros by his own daughter Philonis, but who was the mother of Philonis and of Eosphoros' other children? Could Daidalion, Telaüge and Leukonœ also have been Philonis' offspring?

    40. The Pygmies were said to be the children, together with a few other peoples, of Gaia by either Epaphos or Poseidon. The first of them, called Pygmaios, was the son of Doros son of Epaphos. The Nile river-nymph Memphis was Epaphos' wife and the mother of his daughters Libya and Lysianassa. Was she also necessarily the mother of Doros? Or could it have been Gaia or perhaps a daughter of Poseidon?
  12. Caburus

    Caburus Active Member

    38. I’m taking this to be a reference from Hyginus again? Did Hyginus refer to Greek myths, or was he referring to Roman myths as well? I did wonder if they could be divinely symbolic references to some aspect of blacksmithing or fire, but as the other sons in the list (Corynetes, Philottus, Spinther, Erichthonius, Cecrops, Cercyon, Philammon) were mortals, I would assume they were too.
    A Philottos does appear as the husband of Niobe in a version of the death of her children (Parthenius, Love Stories), and was killed while hunting due to Leto’s wrath at Niobe’s boasts, and his children were burnt.
    39. In Ovid, King Ceyx calls Daedalion his beloved brother, so I suspect they shared both parents. However, Hyginus says that Philonis aka Chione, was his daughter (not Eosphoros’), and was mother to Philammon by Apollo. But he also says Philammon’s mother was Leuconoe, daughter of Lucifer (Eosphoros). Philonis/Chione was also the mother by Hermes of Autolycus, but another account calls her Telauge. Since Autolycus and Philammon were twins, then Chione, Philonis, Leuconoe and Telauge are all the same woman, and are likely one daughter of Daedalion, and not three daughters of Eosphoros. Interestingly Ovid records that Ceyx was turned into a kingfisher and Daedalion into a hawk.
    That then leaves, who was the wife of Daedalion? And if Philonis was his daughter and not his mother (unless there were two women called Philonis, who was his mother? As the morning and evening star Eosphoros was associated with Aphrodite (Venus), and also connected to Selene (Luna), so maybe one of those was the mother of Ceyx and Daedalion. Ceyx’s wife was the daughter Aeolus, so the easiest solution would be to give her a sister who married Ceyx’s brother, but that’s a bit unimaginative. Daedalion was turned into a hawk, a bird that hovers on the wind, so maybe Aeolus, keeper of the winds, does fit as a suitable father-in-law. Or perhaps one of the Meliades, nymphs of Trachis, where Ceyx was king?
    40. As with Phaiax and the Phaeacians, Pygmios need not have been ancestor of the people who took his name. However they were believed to be the children of Epaphos and Gaia (Herodotus), and Pygmios was son of Dorus the son of Epaphos. So in a way, Dorus would be the actual ancestor of the Pygmies, and be the son of Epaphos by Gaia. Perhaps the mother of Pygmios was another daughter of Nilus. It could of course be another Epaphos entirely. I do wonder if there is some link to the pygmy god Bes (Bisu, Aha) of Egyptian mythology – god of dance, music, childbirth and young children.
    Alejandro likes this.
  13. Alejandro

    Alejandro Active Member

    38. I'm sure Hyginus referred to some Roman myths. Ah, I'd completely forgotten about that version of Niobe mythology.
    I found some references to Theosophy, apparently connected with Carl Gustav Jung, one of which references says that the Gnostics believed "that human beings, or at any rate some human beings, carry within them from the beginning a higher element [the spinther] deriving from the world of light, which enables them to rise above the world of the Seven into the upper world of light, where dwell the unknown Father and the heavenly Mother." Then there's a certain Gnostic, Paul Elain Pagels, who says that the pneuma, the incorporeal spirit referred to in Greek in the New Testament and elsewhere "is the spark (spinther) that came from and is drawn to reunite with the Father. One who awakens it within the self does it through gnosis." Whatever all that's supposed to be about!
    39. Nice! :)
    40. Well, since both Bes and the Pygmies are dwarves of Egyptian stock, a connection between the two should be pretty easy to draw, I think. Is Bes' alias Aha in any way connected to the Aha who was supposed to be the first king of the First Dynasty of Egypt, who is also identified with "Scorpion," Narmer and Meni (or in Greek Menes)? Incidentally the Greeks identified this king with Epaphos (thus making Epaphos' stepfather Telegonos one of the kings of Dynasty 0?).
    Speaking of which, why don't we throw a 41st one onto the list>>
    41. Telegonos. King of Egypt who married Io after her arrival in his domain, where she gave birth to Zeus' children Epaphos and Keroissa. He was succeeded on the throne of Egypt by his stepson Epaphos. Who were Telegonos' parents? (I'm taking it he can't be the same Telegonos who was a son of Proteus and grandson of Poseidon, since this latter one is several generations too late for this, as we have the story of him and his brother Polygonos (or Tmolos) being slain by Herakles, a distant descendant of Io and Epaphos.)
  14. Caburus

    Caburus Active Member

    31. Clement of Alexandria included Hippodamia amongst the women Zeus had children by, but then neglects to give her any children. He distinguishes her from Zeus' fruitless relationships and the incestous ones. Hippodaemia's father was Anicetus. If this Anicetus was the son of Heracles and Hebe, both of whom were children of Zeus, then Hippodaemia was Zeus' great grand-daughter twice over. Was this too distant to be classed as incest? I did wonder if Anicetus was an error for Anchises, whose daughter Hippodaemia was married to Alcathous, who died at Troy, but there is no mention of a relationship with Zeus. Her mother is not named, but if it were Aphrodite, then that relationship would have been even more incestuous (as Clement classes Aphrodite as Zeus' sister, and so Hippodaemia would be his niece).
    38. It would be an interesting idea that some Gnostic mythology crept into Hyginus. Do you know if anyone has attempted to correlate Gnostic characters with pagan mythology? Do you think it would be possible?
    40. It had not occurred to me to link Bes-Aha with Hor-Aha. I'm not very clear on the identification that Greeks made between their myths and the actual pharaohs of Egypt. Hor-Aha I thought was the son of Menes/Narmer, which would then make the pygmyish Bes son of Epaphus, so maybe Bes = Doros? But I'm not confident about those links.
    41. In Greek myth, Telegonus means 'last-born', an apt name if he were the last of his dynasty that was replaced by his stepson Epaphus. I've wondered where he came from myself. His existence presupposes a kingdom in Egypt long before any in Greece and Crete. Epaphus has been linked with the Hyksos pharaoh Apepi, so maybe Telegonus was a pre-Hyksos king? Or maybe a son of Nilus, or even his brother?
  15. Alejandro

    Alejandro Active Member

    31. Well, there certainly isn't anything unusual about Zeus' unions being incestuous, beginning with two of his sisters, two of his aunts, his own mother and grandmother, and even his daughter Korē. But more frequently his own descendants are the victims of his rapes. If the Hippodameia in view is a granddaughter of Herakles and Hebe, then she was even more closely related to Zeus than that, since Herakles' mother Alkmene was a granddaughter (and great-granddaughter) of Zeus' son Perseus, not to mention a descendant of Zeus' sons Hermes, Epaphos, Pelasgos, Lakedaimon and Tantalos (as well as of Ares, in case you'd count him as Zeus' son too). Such a relationship between Zeus and Aphrodite is also not unknown, since one version of Eros' parentage gives him these two for parents.

    38. The Gnosticism which crept into the Christian communities of the 1st and 2nd centuries, from the little information which exists on it, doesn't seem to have hesitated at making cryptic reinterpretations of divinities from pretty much any religion, including Orphism, Zurvanism and Manichæism, to try linking them with Biblical references. The names of the spirits in Gnosticism seem to come mainly from Persia, but I don't know that Hyginus should necessarily know about this stuff.

    41. Hmmm... Incidentally the only son of Neilos [Nilus] of whom I've read is a character named Herakles, who's supposed to have connections with Phrygia. It would be interesting if this Herakles, whose name was unknown before he saved Hera from being attacked by a Gigantos, is Telegonos.
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2014
  16. Alejandro

    Alejandro Active Member

    42. Any more info about the following consorts and offspring of Zeus?

    Alkanos [Alcanus]. Son of Zeus by the nymph Kharidia.

    Arktos [Arctus]. Son of Zeus and Manthea, daughter of Phokos [Phocus]. Zeus appeared to Manthea in the form of a bear, hence their son's name, which means "Bear." Which Phokos is this?

    Koron [Coron]. Son of Zeus and Leandia [or Leandeia?], daughter of Eurymedon. (Which Eurymedon? In the Odyssey, Homer names only Periboia, "the youngest daughter" of the Gigantos Eurymedon; the same Periboia who by Poseidon became the mother the Phaeacian king Naüsithoüs. Could this Leand[e]ia be an older sister of Periboia?).

    Pandoros [Pandorus] and Melera. Son and daughter of Zeus and Pandora (daughter of Deukalion and Pyrrha), and siblings of Graikos [Graecus] and Latinos [Latinus].

    Helenos [Helenus]. Son of Zeus and Lysithea, daughter of Evenus. (Which Evenus?).

    Lakon [Lacon]. Eponym of Lakonia (I presume), son of Zeus and Khonia, daughter of Aramnos. (Who are Khonia and Aramnos?)

    Nympheus. Son of Zeus and Thaicrucia [Thaikroukia?], daughter of Proteus (presumably the sea-god Proteus).

    Olympos [Olympus]. Son of Zeus by the nymph Khalkea [Chalcea].

    Sarakon [Saracon]. Son of Zeus by the Asopos Naiad Salamis (making Sarakon a half-brother and cousin of Kykhreus [Cychreus], whom Salamis bore to Poseidon).

    Thissaios [Thissaeus]. Son of Zeus by the Peneios Naiad Khrysogeneia.
  17. Caburus

    Caburus Active Member

    They look like eponymous names. The most obvious, and maybe the too easiest, answer? Nor the traditional Greek origins, but then these are all from a late source.
    .
    Arktos [Arctus]. Son of Zeus and Manthea, daughter of Phokos [Phocus]. Zeus appeared to Manthea in the form of a bear, hence their son's name, which means "Bear." Which Phokos is this?
    - Arctus, ancestor of Arcadia? Is this an alternative myth to Arcus & Callisto? In Apollodorus, Zeus takes the form of Artemis in order to seduce Callisto, whose own transformation into a bear is given as occurring at varying times through her history. Maybe there was some image of a woman (Zeus) with a bear (Callisto), which created the idea that Zeus was the bear? What does Manthea mean? Thea = goddess. Man = great? I can only think Phocus is connected to the area of Greece with that name. (I read one theory that tendered an idea of Phocus as Phorkys; Apollodorus says Callisto was also said to be the daughter of Keteus, which suggests the name Keto who was the wife of Phorkys).​
    Pandoros [Pandorus] and Melera. Son and daughter of Zeus and Pandora (daughter of Deukalion and Pyrrha), and siblings of Graikos [Graecus] and Latinos [Latinus].
    - Graicos and Latinus were ancestors to the Greek and Latin speakers of Italy, according to Roman myth. Perhaps Pandorus = Pan Dorus = All the Dorians? Not sure about Melera. Perhaps she married and produced more eponymous heroes. ​
    Helenos [Helenus]. Son of Zeus and Lysithea, daughter of Evenus. (Which Evenus?).
    - Maybe just ancestor to the Hellenes, and grandson of the Greek river Evenus? Lysithea = mad goddess?​
    Lakon [Lacon]. Eponym of Lakonia (I presume), son of Zeus and Khonia, daughter of Aramnos. (Who are Khonia and Aramnos?)
    - Lacon, founder of Laconia. Aramnos just reminds me of the eponymous founder of Armenia – Aram, (father of Ara the Beautiful who was loved by Queen Semiramis.) ​
    Nympheus. Son of Zeus and Thaicrucia [Thaikroukia?], daughter of Proteus (presumably the sea-god Proteus).
    - Father of the nymphs?​
    Olympos [Olympus]. Son of Zeus by the nymph Khalkea [Chalcea].
    - Origin of the Mount Olympus name?​
    Sarakon [Saracon]. Son of Zeus by the Asopos Naiad Salamis .
    - Ancestor to the Saracens? ​
    Thissaios [Thissaeus]. Son of Zeus by the Peneios Naiad Khrysogeneia.
    - Ancestor to the Thessalonians?​
  18. Alejandro

    Alejandro Active Member

    I think you're most likely right. But then again, about the origins, the source of these names is a writer who had access to a lot of now-lost literature which was in the great burnt-down Alexandria Library, and we do know that there are a bunch of tantalisingly lost Greek myths regarding which we've been left with merely scanty information.
    This's good stuff :) But... are you asking if there was an Arctus who was an ancestor of a certain Arcadia or rather of the people of Arcadia? I think it's possible that there could be a veiled reference to, or confusion with, Arkas [Arcas], the traditional eponymous Arcadian of Greek myth, since he was also a son of Zeus. Though an uncle of this Arkas, his predecessor on the throne of Arcadia, namely Nyktimos, was married to a nymph named Arkadia [Arcadia], which seems to be yet another version of the etymology of the kingdom's name. The Arktos reference might be intended as a more obvious thread connecting bears to Zeus and the territory of Arcadia, since Arkas [which becomes Latinised as Arcas rather than Arcus] does not actually mean "Bear [Arktos]," but the myths try very hard to link the two both philologically and through narrative. There is indeed a better connection between Keto and Keteus, the latter of whom otherwise occurs as one of Kallisto's fifty brothers rather than as her father, and whose name means "Keto's/ Belonging to Keto." No clue, beyond your suggestion, what Manthea means. Unless I pushed it to Manto, "Prophetess" + Thea = "mantic/prophetic goddess," which seems to solve nothing further.
    Nice. Never thought of the name like that before.
    Yeah, I'd also speculated that this is the river-god Evenus. I think Lysithea would denote, rather, something like "Loose Goddess" or "Looser of the Gods (i.e., She Who Releases/Unleashes [the] God[desses])," in the same senses as lysizona, "girdle-loosener," & Lysandra, "Liberator [of Men]."
    I think it's possible, based on alternate versions of myths where daughters become granddaughters, such as above where Kallisto is in one instance the granddaughter of Lykaon, as opposed to the more famous account in which she is his daughter. The more famous version of the nymphs' paternity has them as Zeus' daughters.
    Maybe. A different Olympos occurs as a Gigantos who raised Zeus on Crete Island, later turned on his foster-son after he had grown up and was slain by the young god when Zeus became ruler of the universe. From the giant's name, Zeus then took the title Olympios, "Olympian."
    Well, I did think that Sarakon sounds suspiciously like Sarakenos. In other myths Arabs are called descendants of Hermes or Apollon.
    Hmmm... This one seems a bit less likely, because of the dissimilarity and also the story about how Thessalonike [Thessalonica] was named after Alexander the Great's sister, who herself was named "Victory in Thessalia [Thessaly]" by her father after he had attained just such a victory.
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2013
  19. Alejandro

    Alejandro Active Member

    43. So there are two things that have always bothered me about the parentage of the sea-god Proteus.

    The Oldness (or Age Issues)
    Firstly, the only ancient sources which mention anything about this parentage (Apollodoros and Lykophronos) say that he was a son of Poseidon. Now Proteus is one of those sea-gods who was referred to by the term Halios Geron, "Old Man of the Sea," an epithet applied to other, more ancient gods, namely the three brothers Nereus (father of the 50 Nereides), Phorkys (father of the Gorgons) and Thaümas (father of Iris and of the Harpies), who were the sons of Pontos and Gaia [Sea and Earth]. I've generally always understood this "Old Man" term to indicate a distinction between these almost primeval deities and pretty much all the other gods of the sea, including Poseidon, distinguishing the rest as the younger divinities who came into their own basically after the War of the Titans. So I find it somewhat problematic that Proteus, one of the "Old Men," could be a son of Poseidon, the young[er] King of the Sea. Plus there isn't an alternate parentage given for this character like you'd [reasonably?] expect for this multi-version mythology. Okay, granted that there are sort of two versions or incarnations of Proteus: one is the old sea-god while the other is the Egyptian Pharaoh who reigned through the times of Herakles and the Trojan War (i.e., Seti I). The Proteus of Apollodoros and Lykophronos, the one who is Poseidon's son, seems to be the Egyptian king rather than the sea-god. And if that's the case, where did the sea-god Proteus come from? If he isn't Poseidon's son, he would be the most unique sea deity in the mythology, with no origin story at all, and not much of a hint of where to seek this origin :( [I could be mistaken but I'm fairly certain every other single Greek sea deity's parentage or origin is accounted for.]

    Does it make sense for this old/ancient halios Proteus to be a son of Poseidon? And if not, who could his father be, or what's his origin?
    Mommy Issues (... oh, & wife issues too)
    Secondly, assuming that Proteus, whether the old sea-god or the African monarch, is really a son of Poseidon, who's his mother? Apollodoros and Lykophronos also say that Proteus got married in Thrace to a lady from Phlegra named Torone, who gave her name to a city in Sithonia. Stephanos Byzantinos [Stephanus of Byzantium] mentions a certain Torone daughter of Poseidon and Phoinike [Phoenice], opening up the possibility that Proteus was married to his own [half-]sister. Perhaps she was even his full-sister, making Phoinike his mother as well? This certainly wouldn't be weird for an ancient Egyptian king (actually for him it would be a commonly acceptable keeping-it-in-the-family thing, although my theory is not helped by the fact that the historical Pharaoh Seti I actually did not marry his own sister :oops:) nor even for a Greek deity (like Zeus and Hera; or the sea-god Phorkys, who was married to his own sister Keto).

    Is it a reasonable speculation that Phoinike was the mother of Proteus, and that he was married to his [full-]sister? (Skamon, an obscure writer from Mytilene, mentions Phoinike as the daughter of the Autokhthon [Earthborn man] Aktaios, one of the first kings of Athens, but those are extra details which yet increase my current wordiness, so... :confused:)
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2014
  20. Alejandro

    Alejandro Active Member

    Koolness! I quite accidentally stumbled upon part of the answer to this>>
    With kudos to Caburus for his wrestling with other portions thereof>>
    :cool: Konon says that Philonis was the daughter of Eosphoros and Kleoboia [Cleoboea] and that she was born at Thorikos in Attika (the same city/town in which Odysseus' grandfather Kephalos grew up). Could this Kleoboia possibly be the same as the Argive princess Kleoboia, daughter of King Kriasos [Criasus] and Queen Melantho of Argos?
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2014

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